With God, All Things Are Possible

It’s National Prayer Day, Truthseekers!  I wonder what the faithful are praying for today?  In Arizona, are they praying for even bigger guns and that all the immigrants (with their funny accents, deviant culture, and darker skin) are sucked back South of the border?  Oh, and God, take that Kenyan in in White House back with ‘ya while you’re at it . . .

On Wall Street are they praying that Congress abandons any attempt to regulate the financial services industry?  Are the Big Oil executives clasping their hands – heads bowed – asking Jesus to descend from Heaven with a giant holy vacuum hose and suck up all the oil?  Hey, if He can turn water into wine, can He turn petrol into saline?

Do Neocon militias pray for an endless, cheap supply of nitrogen, TNT, and autographedGlenn Beck posters?  We know Sarah Palin prays for God to guide our troops to continue to do His will by killing Iraqis and Afghans, but does she pray for their widows and orphaned children?

Do the child-molesting Catholic priests pray their victims are sufficiently terrified to come forward with the truth?  Or do they just pray that Pope Rat will cover up their crimes?

We’ll discuss prayer in all it’s forms on the program tonight! 877-996-2556!

This article has 90 comments

  1. Arch

    @Jape:
    RE: May 7, 2010 at 3:28 am comment:

    I apologize – I somehow missed this. I think I was typing at the time.

    “When this country began, the founding fathers chose enlightenment (science) over revelation (religion) because they simply wanted this country to be governed by the people instead of ruled by god.”

    Now, please say it with me: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED equal, endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights…”

    Some others:
    John Adams: “ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

    John Adams: “”We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” –October 11, 1798

    Benjamin Franklin: “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

    John Jay: “ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

    Thomas Jefferson: “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

    Thomas Jefferson: “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”

    James Madison: “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

    And I could go on. Would you like more?

    ——————————-
    “What we don’t need, especially now, is for some right-wing religious fanatics telling us what to believe.”

    But you want the government telling people what to think (re-writing history in school, lying about science in school) and what they have to buy (no guns, but you much purchase gov’t healthcare) and what they can say (so-called “Hate Speech” laws)? Yeah, that makes sense….

  2. GordonOKC

    @ Arch:

    In your response to the question:

    Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God? (repeating for your convenience)

    Your answer is, “God was first.” I take this to mean that morally good acts, and by default bad acts, are good or bad because they are willed so by God. Am I correct in assuming this is your position?

  3. SPO101

    ROMANS 13:4
    “For he is the minister of GOD to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, BE AFRAID; for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is the minister of GOD , a revenger to execute wrath upon those that doeth evil…”
    Hey man… I’m the Pat Robertson of the LEFT. I talk to GOD too, but the message isn’t the same… Can I get an AMEN?

    So, how’d this years National Day of Prayer go? I’ve noticed many Christians seem to have their heads in the clouds… lol (or up their @$$)

    Isn’t it coincidence that the WORST environmental disaster in human history will affect “drill baby DRILL” Red States Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia and crazy South Carolina? Not to mention Tennessee and Kentucky getting hit with un-heard-of flooding.

    TAKE A HINT!

    It’s as though GOD himself has come down from heaven to rub Republican/Conservative noses in the evil BS they’ve spewed for the last few years. It seems like just yesterday that Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck worked their groupies into a cult frenzy with calls for off-shore oil DRILLING.

    Read a passage in the Bible, a hundred people could come up with a hundred different ways to make the words work for them. Christians become War profiteers because they found verse to get around “Blessed are the peacemakers”. If your listening to vicious, greed stricken, degenerate fanatics interpreting the Bible then one might as well become a devil worshipper.

    NOTE: (I was at this one church in the South listening to a rant that ended with a description of Jesus gunning down all the homo’s and commies, or something like that, lol. NO WONDER you right-wing fanatics are cursed)

    Fanaticism turns Muslim against their Holy Book the Quraan. The contradiction couldn’t be more glaring. One only read the 2nd book of the Holy Quraan:
    11. “And when it is said unto them: Make NOT mischief on Earth, we are PEACEMAKERS only.
    12. Behold they are indeed the mischief-makers but they PERCEIVE not.
    13. And when it is said unto them: Believe as the PEOPLE believe
    Shall we believe as the foolish believe? Behold, they are the foolish yet they KNOW NOT…”

    (Yea… there’s a lot of THAT going around nowadays)

    There are those in power who have no shame, feel no guilt, possess no conscience or capacity for empathy. Evil beings who would use everything from the Bible to Darwin to justify their own vain, self-serving, power mad, evil existence. Knowledge as a weapon , a tool to CONTROL the masses who couldn’t possibly understand.
    “Morality – it was created for the common man. The higher man doesn’t worry about whether something is good or evil. He has the courage to rise above that sort of nonsense and ACT.” NIETZSCHE

    Since humans are doing the right or wrong, once and for all we must set the standards of what is good and what is evil. WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG! Reality NOW, from the Almighty GOD to Allah to Buddha to Jesus to Zoroaster there are common basic principles needed to judge your fellow human being:
    Seven Virtues – justice, temperance (moderation), courage, wisdom, faith, hope and love (charity).
    Seven Sins – pride, envy (malice), wrath, lechery, gluttony, avarice (greed) and sloth.
    …Anything beyond these is whiny excuse, spin, ignorance, misinformation, hiding behind high priced attorneys and the worst kind of BS…

    Imagine the American PEOPLE have lost their ability for critical analysis and legitimate debate. Blind faith replaces common sense and rational stance. (it’s NOT so far-fetched, lol) Then WHO do we trust to DECIDE what is right and wrong? Especially in a nation that’s become so divided… EASY!

    Three words… ETHICS, RESPONSIBILITY, ACCOUNTABILITY. You can’t go wrong DEMANDING that from your government and corporate leaders. I suggest the American PEOPLE make these demands NOW… or Constitutional RIGHTS and FREEDOMS will become nothing more than delicate concepts.
    AMEN
    lol
    jinnbad.blogspot.com

  4. JAPE

    @ Arse

    Jefferson was a deist and Adams was a bible-thumping fundamentalist. In fact, their’s was a long-standing feud. Most of the founding fathers were also deists. What was your point in quoting those people? Politicians, when giving rousing speeches, invariably invoke the name of god, or “creator” or “supreme being.”

  5. chucky

    Arch wrote: God could have made us to match up with His perfect will if He wanted – but He didn’t want robots, so He gave us free will, with everything that entails, warts and all, including the capacity for great evil.

    You just proved me right. And that’s why I’d shit-can his ass if this were a paying job. If you or I were doing this lousy at our jobs we would be fired on the spot. Why does God get a free pass?

  6. Arch

    @Gordon:

    As of now, that is how I understand things.

    @SPO101:

    Wow. And the left accuses Christians of reading into things.

    Speaking of: Romans 13:4. I’m not sure why you quoted that – that passage is referring to earthly governing authorities, which is spelled out in verse 1.

    About Jesus gunning down people, well, there are some bad churches and bad preaching out there, too.

    @Jape:

    I’ve noticed the left often says, “the Founding Fathers were deists,” but again, don’t have any proof to back it up. Would you please show me why you think that?

    @Chucky:

    Huh? I really don’t get your reply. God did make things perfect, but WE messed it up by our choices.

  7. JAPE

    @ Arse, again

    Did you read the story, under the headline, when the TX school board voted to expunge Jefferson from its textbooks for his “secular” views?

    @ All

    Did anyone ever wonder why we shout or mutter “Amen” at the end of prayers? In Egyptian mythology, Amen was worshipped as the number one, “god of gods.” Talk about LOL!

    @ Chucky

    Arch gives god a free pass because it takes god off the hook for giving us “free-will.” So, everything else is our fault or fortune. It’s my belief that free-will is part of human intellectual evolution.
    If the god of the Old Testament were put of trial, he would be convicted and sentenced to life without parole.
    Chiefly, among the charges, would be murder, encouraging
    incest, pedophilia, genocide, wars, infanticide, spousal abuse, adultery…etc., etc. It’s all there in the bible!

  8. chucky

    That explains it Jape. And of course, the bible, one of the greatest science fiction books written, was written by MEN. Not God.

    Arch, my point is if God gave us the free-will as you explain, he screwed up. He gave us something that we couldn’t handle properly. That was mistake #1. Mistake #2 is not seeing that mistake and correcting it.

    I have a couple of other questions.

    1) If the God you describe actually exested, why doesn’t he come down here and straighten the rest of us out about what to believe? Why are there so many religions in the world? Why not come down to us and tell us straight?

    2) If he loves all of us the way you say he does, why does he allow so much suffering in the world? Why is it some children come down with horrible, terminal diseases while other people who are complete selfish pigs live long, happy lives? How does he allow an absolute animal like oh say bin Laden to live while 5 year children die from a brain tumor? If he loves all of us so much, why doesn’t he give all of us the exact same opportunity as everybody else. If the answer is the free will thing you’ve been talking about, well…….

    Arch, I’m seriously trying to have a legitimate, civil debate with you. So far, it’s been just that. And I appreciate that. I hope it will stay that way. But I must say this: If that is your God, that’s fine. But I want no part of him. And I sure as hell am not about to worship that.

  9. Matt

    Bo,

    Help me out here. I’m trying to understand your point about prayer…..You wrote:
    “Pray–is bunk. It is a brainwashing through the ages.
    We will never get rid of pray. It has been soaked into us since the day someone decided to control people for their own greed. You name the greed. It could be anything.As we know it and were taught from other animals the right and wrong was gene
    into us from something. The word pray is a weird word and will stay around like space and then disappear.”

    “Pray is bunk.”
    Do you mean PRAYER is bunk?

    “The word pray is a weird word.”
    Again, do you mean the word PRAYER is a weird word?

    What is so weird about the word pray OR the word prayer?

    “As we know it and were taught from other animals the right and wrong was gene into us from something”

    As you responded so succinctly to June”
    “WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?”

    What does “right and wrong was gene into us from something” actually mean?

    You went on to respond to me by saying,
    “Pierre’s opinion and only his opinion can mean that a person who can’t understand “believes” can only revert to faith. And…that translates to brainwashing. We all love to live in wonder wonderland. It keeps us sane. I think”

    Webster’s Dictionary defines “faith”, (a word you say you’re familiar with) as “belief; especially in a revealed religion; trust or reliance; a system of religious doctrines believed in; loyalty;
    pledged word.

    Bo,we ALL don’t “live in wonder wonderland”; but I
    BELIEVE that you, indeed, do.

  10. Arch

    @Jape:

    Secular – why do biology textbooks still cite the Miller-Urey experiment, the Heckle Embryo Woodcarvings, and various other “proofs” of evolution that have all been discredited by scientists?

    Jefferson is studied, and he was possibly the most secular of the Founding Fathers. Why don’t we study the other 41?

    Amen – yes, was the name of an Egyptian god. But in Hebrew, the original language of the Old Testament, it is a word meaning, “Let it be so.”

    Nike was a Greek god. Does that mean that anyone who puts on a pair of shoes is a pagan?

    All that you state are in the Bible – and done by men. Yes, God ordered the Hebrews to wipe out other groups because they did things that were an affront to God. It’s related to the idea of “God wouldn’t send a good person to Hell.” Well, who gets to define what is good? God. He is perfect. He sets the standard, and if He lowers that standard then He is not perfect any more. But he also gives us, as imperfect people, a way to have our imperfections covered by a sacrifice – the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

    @Chucky:

    I appreciate our conversation, and I hope you know that I am not meaning to say anything that is insulting or degrading to you. If I have, I apologize – that is not my intent. I’m appreciate a good debate, when both sides are able to clearly articulate their point of view and their reasons behind that belief.

    The Bible was written by men, but inspired by God. Secularist like to say that there are contradictions in the Bible, but there are not. Even the original texts do not have contradictions. Before we found the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have texts from the Old Testament that dated about 2,000 years after the events. The Dead Sea Scrolls were about (if I recall correctly) 1,200 to 1,000 years older than the oldest texts we had. Texts from Isaiah were compared. The only difference found between the two was the inclusion of a word that was implied in the original language. So, for example, the phrase, “Go eat dinner” became, “You go eat dinner.” (in that context, too – that’s just what came to mind quickly).

    “He gave us something we couldn’t handle properly.”

    When I was in school, a girl I was acquainted with was given a brand new Mustang the day she turned 16, which was a Wednesday. On Friday, she wrapped it around a telephone pole, but fortunately wasn’t majorly injured. Monday, she had another brand new Mustang (rich family, obviously).

    She couldn’t handle the car – does that make her parents evil for giving it to her? Were they evil for not “seeing that mistake and correcting it” (replacing the car)? I’d say no. I don’t agree with that method of parenting, but they weren’t evil for allowing their daughter to have a car. If anything they would be seen as generous parents for doing that (but again, I would disagree with that particular parenting style, but I digress…)

    Question 1: He could come down and straighten us out, but it would be the equivalent of locking someone in a basement and telling them that they must love you – it isn’t real love, and cannot be. Love must be a choice (in my opinion).

    As for other religions (I know someone will get mad at me about this, but it’s what I believe) there is an Enemy that hates God (Satan actually translates as “Enemy”), but can’t actually do anything to God because, well, He’s God. So Satan attacks those that God loves – us. Cults do this all the time – they turn children against their parents through deception.

    Satan is also called, “The Father of Lies.” The deception here on earth does not always take the form of something wicked and terrible – often, the best deceptions leave people quietly and happily oblivious to the lies around them. In my opinion, other religions fall into that category (just as Christianity falls into that category for other religions, I’m sure).

    Question 2: Why is there evil and suffering in the world? In all honesty, that is something that I have been asking recently, too. The easy answer is to say that we suffer through our choices, and while I believe that is often the case, it is hard to justify that when you look at a family that just lost their newborn child after three days. I don’t have an answer for this question right now, but I’m about to start reading C. S. Lewis’s “The Problem of Pain” which was recommended to me about this very subject.

    Again, I do appreciate the debate – it really does mean a lot to me.

    Here’s my question for an atheist: If, as an atheist, you claim to know that there is no god, doesn’t that seem to assert that you know of and are aware of all things? Isn’t it possible that something exists outside of what you know of and are aware of?

    Please forgive me if that sounds rude – it is not meant to be.

  11. JAPE

    @ Chucky

    Arch’s comments to you and everyone else, are usually dripping with condescension. He unceasingly defends his “christianity” but, at the same time, belittles others for their beliefs. He always demands empirical proof. Where the hell is his proof? A book written by Phoenician scribes as dictated by illiterate MEN?

    Early on, Arch states that the TRUE believers (like himself) represent 75% of the U.S. population. He only counts protestants and catholics. So, in his own “christian judgement,” 25% of Jews, Muslims, atheists, deists, Hindus, Buddists, etc., are full of shit for THEIR belief systems.

    Now, I asking you honestly, how do you think Arch got so fucked up without a degree in theology? I’m only guessing regarding his degree in theology, but because he beats the bible so much, to justify his blather, one would think that he has.

  12. GordonOKC

    Arch:

    re: Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?

    If an act is right or wrong based entirely on what God commands then that would make those actions arbitrary on God’s part. God could decide before you reach the end of this sentence that’s it’s “perfectly” moral and even an obligation to commit the act of rape.

    Apologists will often think they can make the question go away by stating that since God is essentially morally perfect it’s impossible for God to make such arbitrary changes. They are incorrect and unknowingly raising more questions.

    This limitation proposed by many apologists rules out one of the common views held by believers, that of God being all powerful.

  13. Arch

    @Jape:

    Yes, I am sarcastic. I’m very sarcastic with you because you are incredibly rude and disrespectful to others – maybe that’s a weakness of mine. But didn’t you recently tell me to grow a thick skin?

    Now, please quote me where I “belittle others for their beliefs.” I’d like to know how you interpret what I say as “belittling.” I disagree with others, yes – just like they disagree with me. And I already gave my proof – it would be my second post on this page.

    75% – I said, and it is documented by the Census Bureau, that 75% of Americans identify themselves as Protestant or Catholic. That was ANSWERING THE QUESTION ASKED – a foreign concept to you, apparently.

    The question was, “What was it that myself or Jape said “that trashed a majority of America”? And just who is this majority?” The answer is “75% are Protestant or Catholic.” What is your problem with FACTS and ANSWERING QUESTIONS?

    Disagreeing with someone does not make you a bigot, as you seem to think – unless, that is, you’re admitting that you’re a racist bigot for how much you disagree with others. Are you admitting that?

    I think you should look up the definitions of the words “tolerance,” “acceptance,” and “disagree.” You might learn something.

    Have you ever thought about listening to something with an open mind? I try to read and listen to EVERYTHING with an open mind – I don’t dismiss things out of hand. I evaluate, with logic and reason, what I see, read, and experience. That is why I believe as I believe.

    It looks like you’re not even reading the posts of someone you disagree with. I can’t tell that you are – if you were reading, you wouldn’t have to guess that I don’t have a degree in theology, because I’ve already told you that I don’t.

    Why do you refuse to answer simple questions? I’ve asked you several, but you simply refuse to answer them. I ask because I want to hear your point of view – so I can evaluate it, along with the facts that you present, and reach my own conclusion. Honestly, you’ve told me to go away plenty of times – answer the questions and I just might. Give it a shot – what’s the worst that could happen?

  14. Arch

    @Gordon:

    You are operating under the assumption that God is arbitrary and likely to change – you assign human characteristics, such as capriciousness, to God. If He were that capricious, He would not be perfect (yes, I’m using the Christian argument that God is perfect, just to clarify). If God changed, then He would not be perfect. If God were capable of changing, He would not be perfect.

    Perfection cannot change, because if it could it would not be perfect. If it needed to change, it would not be perfect to begin with.

    God’s Will, his “actions” as you say, are not arbitrary at all.

    If, as you say, God were to decide as I write this that we are obligated to commit rape, then that would mean that what God already said, that He is perfect and His Law is perfect, was not perfect to begin with.

    You are saying that God cannot be perfect by pre-supposing that God is arbitrary, which is, by nature, imperfect. That is an illogical argument.

    Please explain who this is “incorrect and unknowingly [raises] more questions – I’d like to understand your point of view.

  15. GordonOKC

    Arch:

    But the answer you offered only postpones the question and rephrases it somewhat. Is something perfect because it is in and of itself perfect, or is it perfect because God says so?

    The question is not illogical. Think it over. If a law handed down by your definition of God is not arbitrary then isn’t it already good in and of itself?

    In answer to your question my point of view is that of an atheist.

    I have to get on to work. Later.

  16. JAPE

    @ Arse

    You seem incapable of changing. So, using your own logic, it would follow that you are perfect and infallible.

    No, you don’t have a degree in theology, neither do I and I won’t put you through the torment of guessing in which subject area I have a college degree. Psychology? No, because I wouldn’t know what I was talking about if, for example, I made a diagnosis of your personality; a sociopath, perhaps? A xenophobe, definitely! See how that works, Arch? I can make myself and others believe that’s what you are and I can argue all day in support of that position. Now, let’s see you try to deny the allegation and, of course, I want PROOF contrary to what I’ve stated about you.
    Now, you know how it feels to be bludgeoned over and over again by your philosophy.
    In case it comes up…Science is what it is: science. Religion, in all of its wonderful forms, is a philosophy.

  17. Arch

    @Gordon:

    The original question: “Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”

    Answer: They are morally good because they are willed by God.

    Your Response: “If an act is right or wrong based entirely on what God commands then that would make those actions arbitrary on God’s part. God could decide before you reach the end of this sentence that’s it’s “perfectly” moral and even an obligation to commit the act of rape.”

    My Answer: Here is where I see the error. You are presupposing that those actions – the Law as set forth by God, for my definition – ARE arbitrary. The action/The Law is not arbitrary at all. They are designed to reflect the unchanging characteristics of God – for our discussion here, the characteristic that they reflect is God’s perfection.

    It is like me explaining that my eyes are green – that is one of my characteristics. Being an imperfect/arbitrary human, I can wear contacts that change my eye color.

    God’s characteristics, in this discussion His perfection or holiness (spiritual purity), is not arbitrary or mutable at all.

    Proof from the Bible: Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I do not change;”

    Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

    That being said, God’s standard is perfection:

    Leviticus 11:44a “For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy.”

    We, as beings of free will, make mistakes and cannot be holy. It’s like giving a test where even one wrong answer means failure.

    If that were the end of the story, then it would be depressing indeed. But Jesus came, lived a perfect life (He is man and God, and the only one who ever was capable of living a perfect life), but loved us enough to die to take our failure, our punishment, on Himself. Jesus took the test of perfection and passed, and he passes that perfect onto those who believe in Him.

    I hope that makes sense – I’m looking forward to your response.

    @Jape:

    So I’m right – you don’t actually READ my posts. If you did, you would know that I am asking, indeed BEGGING to be proven wrong. I am perfectly willing to admit when I’m wrong. I just refuse to bow to the statement “I’m right, you’re wrong, now admit that I’m right you ****” (my edit – I don’t cuss). That’s why I ask questions. Yet you still REFUSE to answer.

    You SAY that I’m a sociopath and xenophobe. Great. Prove it. You are making the allegation, so you have the burden of proof.

    I, on the other hand, saying things like, “The healthcare reform bill will cost trillions more than Obama said it would.” I then point to the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) report that says that the healthcare bill will cost trillions more than than originally reported.

    Do you see how that works? I make a remark, so I have the burden of proof. I then provide the proof. I don’t just make broad generalizations – I SUPPORT them. With Proof. Or, in other words, with the TRUTH.

    Truthseeker, indeed.

  18. JAPE

    @ Arse

    First of all, I never said, “I’m right, you’re wrong, now admit that I’m right you ****.” If it was said, I don’t know who said it.

    Some of us have learned from either a classroom, or from a long life of varied experiences. You always demand PROOF, which, I’m telling you, makes people angry. You could tone-down the rhetoric. That’s my advice, take it or leave it.

    Your trouble is that you come off as an authority about everthing. A biblical scholar? An inflated blowhard? Self-absorbed? Do you really want that image? It only pisses people off.
    You just keep hammering your point home until you exhaust the subject of discussion in order to prove yourself right at any cost and to prove others wrong no matter what they’re trying to communicate to you. This is the MAIN reason why people cuss you out. Re-read some of your previous posts.

    By the way, a psychologist doesn’t have to PROVE a clinical assessment or diagnosis. By the same token, a patient would not argue the diagnosis for fear of proving said diagnosis to be true.

  19. Arch

    @Jape:

    Correct, you’ve never said exactly what I quoted. But how many times have you told me and ConMN to go away, **** off (again, my edit), die, etc?

    You’ve been talking about science, and what does science demand? Proof. Verifiable data. Repeated TRUTH.

    I do think it’s interesting that someone on the left says, “always [demanding] PROOF…makes people angry.” That, to me, is typical of politicians, but especially LIBERAL politicians – “don’t ask me for proof, just listen to the vague nonsense that I spew and take my word for it.” At least people on the right are called to testify before Congress. They have something to testify about.

    And I “come off as an authority on everything.” Hmm… do you mean that I share what I “have learned from either a classroom, or from a long life of varied experiences”? Because that is what I’m doing.

    Do you not see the irony in what you are saying?

    You say that I “keep hammering [a] point…to prove others wrong no matter what they’re trying to communicate to you.” Except that you, Jape, are not communicating.

    I’ve had great conversations/discussions with Gordon and a few others because we communicate – a give and take of information. Jape, you don’t give information. You refuse to answer questions and instead vomit out hateful rhetoric, then accuse conservatives of hate.

    You say that I act like “an authority of everything.” So don’t you WANT to prove me wrong? I’m asking you to – in fact, I’m begging you. Please, prove me wrong. Please, if I’m wrong, help me correct my worldview. Havn’t you been waiting for a chance to prove a conservative wrong? I would like nothing better than to be corrected. Why aren’t you jumping at the chance?

    One more thing: Psychologists. *sigh* I guess you don’t know that in order to have a mental patient committed or ordered onto medication that they must TESTIFY to EVIDENCE in a court of law? In other words, they must PROVE the diagnosis. Courts don’t just take their word for it. Could you image the abuse that would go on if that were possible. And mental patients that are truly crazy (at least most of them) don’t think they are crazy – that’s part of the problem. And how do I know this? What’s the PROOF? My father, who happens to be a judge, has had to order people into mental hospitals and onto medication. When some of the crazier ones then threatened our family, he would give us information about how to identify those people and tell us about how they acted.

    But apparently, my own personal testimonies “from a long life of varied experiences” don’t count much for you, do they?

    I’m begging you, please prove me wrong. Will you please do that? I’m here seeking truth – don’t you say that you’re doing the same?

  20. Arch

    @Gordon:

    I’ve been thinking about it more:

    You say, “If a law handed down by your definition of God is not arbitrary then isn’t it already good in and of itself?”

    I think that you’re saying that “Do not lie” is already good, regardless of the fact that God made a law that said, “Do not lie.”

    I’m beginning to see your thoughts, and why you probably think that I’m using circular logic.

    Is it bad to lie? Yes, of course. But what makes it bad? I would think that your argument is it is bad by virtue of it being bad. My argument is that lying is bad because God defines it as bad because it is against His character.

  21. JAPE

    @ Arse

    This is how you react to constructive criticism? Real mature! Also, I never said for you to “die.” It’s getting close to that, now, however.

    You’re wrong when you said that mentally ill patients must be committed. They do not have to appear in court if they accept the diagnosis and their particular illness in managed by drug therapy. They would only be committed by court order if they present a danger to themselves and others. And isn’t calling them “crazy (at least MOST of them),” spewing hatred? And so what if your father is a judge? You just had to throw that in there, didn’t you, big shot! If I were a public defender, I’d welcome the chance to face him. He’s probably just like you…a know-it-all bigot! An acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree.

  22. JAPE

    @ Arse, again

    You also made an incorrect assumption regarding science. Well, you said that you like being corrected. Science is made up of theories, some proven, some not. Science has been doubted and questioned for centuries.
    Religion is one of many philosophies. It’s based on faith and belief, not theory. I understand its appeal to fundamentalists like you. For instance, you don’t bother to question that the bible says the Earth was created in six days. To you it’s unquestionable fact. You KNOW that you dismiss other peoples’ views regarding religion and it’s because you think that the bible is the irrefutable “word of god.” That ideology fits you, because you think that YOUR opinions are irrefutable.

  23. Arch

    I don’t know why I bother…but I feel the need…

    So telling someone to **** off (my edit) is constructive criticism? I’d get fired from my job if I gave “constructive criticism” like that.

    Mentally ill: If you’d read what I said, I specified “committed” and “ordered onto medicine.” Try some careful reading in the future, ok?

    Yes, my father is a judge, and as I was writing initially I was thinking that I should have said that you’d get ticked off about me mentioning that, but again, I guess you only “have learned …a long life of varied experiences” if you’re a liberal and agree with you, right?

    Science – How are scientific theories proven? With repeated testing and facts – but again, the left doesn’t seem to like facts, as you’ve demonstrated admirably. On a somewhat related note, where is the data “proving” climate change? Oh, yeah, the liberal scientists destroyed it all.

    Creation of the earth: 2 Peter 3:8.

    Faith and belief: Faith, for me, is based on belief combined with and supported by empirical evidence, or direct observation. I don’t buy into blind faith at all – can I know all aspects of Christianity for certain? No, and there are some things that I don’t understand. But I strive to understand and reason out, with support, as much as I am able to.

    Do you have blind faith that man evolved from lower life forms? Because there is not evidence for that – and I can give you my PROOF for that if you would like.

  24. JAPE

    @ Arch

    Ask your daddy, the judge, if he ever heard of famed defense attorney, Clarence Darrow, who stated, “There is no justice in or out of the courtroom.” What do you suppose he meant by that? Darrow, of course, represented Scopes in the “Monkey Trial.” Discuss…

  25. JAPE

    @ Arse

    People like you, when given enough time, will eventually expose themselves for what they really are: Sociopathic hatemongers. I think that others have already told you that.
    Your idea of having a dialogue with people usually result in arguments that you feel you must win. You’re a bully with an authority complex who feels that you are intellectually superior to everyone.
    Please, go practice your hateful diatribes somewhere else. You’re not convincing anyone that you’re a decent person. You’ve convinced me that you’re a loud-mouthed shitsack.

  26. joeny

    @Arch

    I have been following with interest the comments between you and Jape. I admire your patience and civility even though the replies directed at you are insulting and angry. Your posts are insightful and informative and based on facts that you always reference. On the other hand I have found that both here and on other sites a common trait among liberals is to scream about injustices and make demands without regard for the consequences. Contrary to what Jape says you have shown that you are a decent person and I hope you continue to post and provoke people to think and form their own opinions based on facts and not on unproven claims they hear from ideological radio and tv shows on both the right and left.

  27. JAPE

    @ joeny

    Who are you, Arch’s mother?

    You’re right, Arch is quite the provocateur! But, please don’t encourage his behavior.

    Whenever anybody posts an opinion, he always wants us to cite references. How does one reference one’s own opinions or thoughts? What he does, is cite references which are someone else’s opinions, ones with whom he agrees and states them as facts…apparently, he doesn’t seem to have a mind of his own. Yeah, thanks for defending him!

  28. Arch

    @Joeny,

    Thank you for the kind words. I really wouldn’t mind at all to be proven wrong – I like to be sure about what I believe. I have just asked some simple questions (other threads) and have not received answers, or been cussed at for it. But I won’t give up 🙂

    @Jape:

    Scopes Monkey Trial:

    1) I don’t know why Darrow said that – if I had to guess, I’d say he was irritated about being fined for contempt of court. But despite what you may think, “Inherit the Wind” was almost total fiction. I would recommend the following books: Larson’s “Summer for the Gods” and Scope’s “Center of the Storm” (yes, the Scopes from the trial). You might actually get some facts.

    Also, this website is great: http://www.themonkeytrial.com/

    2) Why do you ask about the Scopes Trial? How does it relate to our discussion?

    RE: Sociopathic hatemongers: You know, it would be easy for me to make uniformed allegations about you in an attempt at insults and to try and make myself feel better, too. For example, I could say, “You seem to have the IQ of a cockroach, but that would be an insult to cockroaches everywhere.” – this is just an example, I am not actually saying that. I don’t say that because I have no PROOF.

    So please, explain to me why you think I’m a sociopathic hatemonger. Will you please do that?

    In response, I have a question for you – do you believe in the evolution of man? If so, why?

  29. Arch

    @Jape

    You say that you shouldn’t have to give support for you opinion. But I want you to understand: I want to know WHY you formed that opinion – even opinions have a foundation and formation process. That helps me understand your point of view. It is very hard to have a conversation and dialogue if we don’t understand each other.

    That is why I continually ask for proof – so that I better understand your point of view. It’s not to be rude, or insulting, or to question your ability to research – it’s to help facilitate communication.

  30. JAPE

    @ Arse

    Here are three examples of why we don’t need to understand or communicate with each other: I never mentioned the movie, “Inherit the Wind” (the title of which was taken from a bible passage) and I know that it was fictional. But, it was based on the Scopes Trial (Monkey Trial) which dealt with human evolution. You should’ve asked your daddy.

    Darrow was more likely commenting, generally on the human condition.

    From my perspective, trying to communicate with you is like trying to reason with a wise-ass teenager.

  31. Arch

    1) You brought up Darrow, who is most known for the Scopes trial. Read the books I’ve already listed – “Summer for the Gods” and “Center of the Storm.”

    2) I’m trying to communicate, yet you continually refuse to offer anything except vague generalities with no reason behind them. I’m going to keep trying – why don’t you at least try instead of refusing?

  32. Arch

    @Jape:

    Please explain what you mean by “attempt to bait others into a protracted, one-sided argument” becuase that is not what I do.

    And cussing at me doesn’t work, just so you know. It also isn’t a great way to show that you are a caring, compassionate, open-minded member of the left.

  33. Conservative In MN

    @Arch

    Keep up the fight! Don’t you think Jape(aka Joke) would have been an interesting opponent in Debate Class? I have to admit it is fun to read. Proof of my thoery about debating (most, not all) liberals.

    Later

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